guide dang it

[Atarlost]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt

There are several pieces of knowledge that are required to play certain strategies effectively. Most people will only learn of these through other players or through examining the xml.

The biggest one is the slave trade. You don't find out that there are consequences to it different from other illegal trades until you get executed, possibly after saving your game.

Number two is drug running. There's a hint on selling in the maintainance section description on corporate enclaves, but no hint on how to get a blackmarket ID and no hint on selling to the victorian nightclub. The corporate enclave needs to give a hint about restaraunts somehow, and the black market and tempus labs need to flat out tell you about selling in victorian nightclubs when you either buy your first load of drugs or a smuggler's hold.

[Darth Saber]

Artalost, if the Black Market were to become readily accessible, what would be the point? The Black Market is supposed to be hard to get in, and even harder to get out of... alive. Look at the restaurant for example: the two brothers from Eridani were on the watch for a kindred spirit; one who was willing to take extra risk for some quick cash with no questions asked. Also take a look at the Victorian Nightclub: if the CW authorities knew that they were dealing in illegal substances, they would be obliged to shut it down according to law. Know on slavery, I wholly agree. I have dock at BM stations where they were selling slaves; if it is alright for them to do so and not get caught, then it should be alright for you. Also, how does the CW know when you have sold a slave, unless someone blew the whistle; especially if you sold it to a BM station; that part makes no sense.

[Betelgeuse]

I think player experience should be part of the game (as does George). As the player learns and tries out new things they get better at the game. It is great when you find out one of these strategies. I agree that this can be taken too far but the restaurant, maintainance section, and victorian nightclub where all found out without looking at looking at a guide.

They even all have the same condition. Bring illegals to certain places. Once you find one (the maintainance one is the simplest one but the restaurant was the first one I found) you will try to see if you can get other things to trigger by doing the same thing other place.

[Atarlost]

That requires you to know which stations have customs and which don't.

I posted this after observing a new player completely miss the victorian nightclub on IRC. He didn't even have any indication there was somethinghe was missing.

[Darth Saber]

Artalost, when you said that you were "observing a new player completely miss the victorian nightclub," did you mean that he was talking about his travels, or has George created an online player version of Transcendence which I am not aware of?

[Atarlost]

It was on the IRC channel so I was observing letters appear on my screen matching the keys he struck on his keyboard while typing about his experiences.

[Aury]

1) so you can see the messages as they are being typed? (before they are entered?)
2)what's in the victorian nightclub?

[Atarlost]

No, but I can see the charachters appear when he hits carriage return.

The victorian nightclub is where you sell drugs.

[Fossaman]

I disagree. The player is quite capable of figuring these things out for themself. It may take them multiple playthroughs, but that's the way it works for roguelikes (which transcendence nominally is).

[Wurmish]

I'll put my few cents in here...
My first experience of the Black Market was total accident. IIRC the T31 transports or whatever they're called SOMETIMES drop an 'unidentified ROM' that happens to be the Black Market ID chip. So I just thought for awhile that I was able to waltz in whenever I wanted... then I learned the hard way my next playthroughs

Other question... is there a reward for the Black Market mission? I can't seem to obtain one. Furthermore perhaps more BM missions would be nice...

[Atarlost]

I disagree. The player is quite capable of figuring these things out for themself. It may take them multiple playthroughs, but that's the way it works for roguelikes (which transcendence nominally is).

That's true in traditional rougelikes, but traditional rougelikes also have permadeath. The mere existance of dynamic content does not a rougelike make. It's permadeath that makes learning over multiple playthroughs the dominant paradigm.

[Aeonic]

This game would be more fun with permadeath, or at least a player option to have such. I played my last playthrough all the way to Heretic (before I deleted a mod and messed up my save) without dying. If I can do it, other people can too. I'm not even very good.

And I think that more of ANY missions would be good for this game. Missions are the best part of the game.

A lot of games have their secrets. I'm OK with the black market having theirs. If people can't stand not knowing, they can search these forums and find out like I did. Otherwise, they can keep exploring until they figure it out themselves. A lot of games maintain a long life this way, such as Star Control 2, which took people a long time to figure out the secrets of.

I would, however, like better instructions on how to do things which aren't secrets. Like having mining stations tell you exactly how to mine, or some information on what the heck a fabrication chamber is. Would be nice if there were more stations in the game that would actually talk to you and give you information about these things instead of just providing services. In the late game, nobody talks to you. All they do is buy and sell stuff.

[speedofsquid]

FWIW, the The Victorian Nightclub description does provide a hint, and if a player manages to get a Black Market mission, a connection is explicit.

[schilcote]

Indeed. One of the reasons people are still playing Marathon is because of the complexity and depth of its storyline, as well as the many subtle Easter eggs.

[george moromisato]

I think there are different classes of secrets and they need to be dealt with differently:

1. Some secrets open up optional parts of the game. For example, the Huari missions and the Black Market. It should be possible to win the game without knowing any of these secrets--but knowing them might make the game more fun for advanced players. These secrets range the gamut from "easily discoverable" to "requires a guide"

2. Some secrets make the game easier for experienced players. For example, knowing about the Ice Farm/Hotel trade route makes the game easier. In general, these secrets should be discoverable and obvious once you know about it. [The Teraton fabricator fall in this category, but fails the test of being "obvious once you know about it."]

3. Some secrets are insta-kills if you don't know about them. These, such as slave trading, should be removed from the game. [In other words, the player should always be warned in some way--for example, before slave trading, maybe the player should be told that they cannot go back to a commonwealth station.]

Are there other kinds of secrets that don't fall in these categories?