RC3 Armor Balance

[george moromisato]

For RC3 I'm planning to increase the hit points on armor by about 50%. I've created a spreadsheet to help me balance the armors and I'd love a secord (or third, or fourth) pair of eyes on it.

The spreadsheet is here:

http://www.neurohack.com/public/forums/ ... alance.zip

Here's what the fields mean:

cost: the cost of the armor in RC2
mass: the mass of the armor in RC2 (kilograms)
hp: the hit points for the armor in RC2
effectiveHP: this is a weighted average of hit points taking into account damage type adjustment. [e.g., for level II armors, laser and kinetic damage resistance counts more than plasma damage resistance.]
cost/hp: price per effectiveHP in RC2
mass/hp: kilograms per effectiveHP in RC2

new hp: proposed HP for RC3
new cost: proposed cost for RC3
new mass: proposed mass for RC3
new effictiveHP: new effectiveHP computed from new HP.
new cost/hp: new cost / new effectiveHP
new mass/hp: new mass / new effectiveHP

To help me balance, I've defined a set of "standard armors," one for each level. A standard armor has no damage bonuses (other than intrinsic to the level) and no special features.

1. Standard armor HP starts at 36 at level I and increases by 30% each level.
2. Standard armor cost starts at 50 at level I and increases by 100% each level.
3. Standard armor mass starts at 2,500 kg at level I and increases by 5% each level.

I've also computed a table of standard effective HP. The computation is a little complicated, so I just include the resulting table here:

I = 36
II = 56
III = 84
IV = 124
V = 167
VI = 244
VII = 271
VIII = 375
IX = 541
X = 588

Edit: Fixed some of the numbers in the table for standard effective HP (made a mistake in my original calculations).

[Aury]

The mass gradiation of P100 -> P250 -> P1300 doesn't seem to match up, but then again, the hp gradiations have changes (Both raw and effective), thus their names would probably change as well.

also, since shields are apparently staying nerfed, seeing higher level no-shield armors might be nice... (especially maybe a couple disintegration-proof ones for fighting the iocrym perhaps?)

[digdug]

looks very good,
from a quick look at it, it seems to me that you flat out the "new mass/hp" that now ranges around 20-40 "by eye". In the old "mass/hp" there are spikes if you graph them, the new values look more flat.

By math, the average of the "new mass/hp" is around 22 (excluding armors like hierosteel)
while the "RC2 mass/hp" is around 39

that's an average 43% increase in hp because the weights have not substantially changed.


In conclusion, I love it, we are going to get back in armor what we lost in shield.

[Atarlost]

I don't see anything wrong with it per se. I don't think this is the right direction to go though.

Boosting armor instead of putting something back into shields does leave the shieldbuster MAG completely useless. It's predicated on the old shield stats. Increased armor is also going to make any fast enemy that follows the default behavior of running away to regen when its shield goes down extremely annoying. This is also a huge nerf to Earth Slavers, the Dragon Slaver, and Sung Citadels as well as Pteravores (though that last one isn't a complaint) because their strength comes from being able to remove or bypass shields. It's also a huge boost for anything that does EMP, radiation, device damage, or disintigration since armor HP mean nothing against them. AI ships also now seem to stack up EMP rather than ceasing to use EMP weapons against EMPed ships, which makes EMP turn into an unavoidable death spiral much more easily. That's fine and sensable behavior, but EMP needs to be nerfed in some other way to compensate, not boosted by shifting emphasis from shields to armor.

If I were redoing shields I would make shields prevent those effects even when transparent (at least partially, and not linearly. I'd make the EMP chance through shields square (eg 90% opaque shields block 99% of EMP, 80% shields block 96% of EMP, and 50% shields block 75% of EMP; same for device damage and radiation, but disintigration needs a threshold since it's an instakill attack, something like no effect if a shield is more than X% opaque where X is lower than the opacity of a typical shield)) and make shield transparency the norm rather than the exception. That still would go with improving armor, but would also go with improving the HP and/or regen of shields (except those select shields that retain 100% opacity)

I also think, from a modding standpoint, that making radiation and EMP resistance automatic based on level rather than adding the flags to higher level armors is a mistake. It prevents even an adventure extension from having EMP or radiation using opponents at higher levels.

Don't forget, if armor HP changes, to change the armorShield on the hull plate ionizer though.

[Aury]

The barricades don't seem to progress geometrically anymore;
expected: 90->180->360
real: 90->150->270

Also, what's the point of neutronium armor? None of the playerships can use it because its too massive, as alluring of an armor as it looks on paper. Few balanced modded ships can use it too. I think it's repair tech is also high, which also prevents even ringer stations from repairing it.

If P250 gets bumped to P500 (Which is about what it looks like), P1300 should be reduced to about 30000kg

We can override the automatic resistances with in-xml adjustments, right? (ie, if we want a radiation-vulnerable armor at level 8, we can put radiationimmune= "false" or something like that, right?)

[Aeonic]

I also think, from a modding standpoint, that making radiation and EMP resistance automatic based on level rather than adding the flags to higher level armors is a mistake. It prevents even an adventure extension from having EMP or radiation using opponents at higher levels.

In my opinion, having damage adjustment attached to level is a mistake as it is. Its already extremely difficult to make spreadsheets that will accurately calculate the value of shields and armor based on how much damage they can absorb. Having EMP and radiation attached to it as well is just making things worse.

Why does standard mass increase with level? I can't see any reason to increase it since, unlike hp and cost, your ability to support mass doesn't change throughout the game. It seems like mass would be better left as a way to balance the value of the armor. The more it weighs, the better it is, and the less your ship cooperates. So the player has to decide whether they want more protection or more maneuverability.

[Aury]

I also think, from a modding standpoint, that making radiation and EMP resistance automatic based on level rather than adding the flags to higher level armors is a mistake. It prevents even an adventure extension from having EMP or radiation using opponents at higher levels.

In my opinion, having damage adjustment attached to level is a mistake as it is. Its already extremely difficult to make spreadsheets that will accurately calculate the value of shields and armor based on how much damage they can absorb. Having EMP and radiation attached to it as well is just making things worse.

Why does standard mass increase with level? I can't see any reason to increase it since, unlike hp and cost, your ability to support mass doesn't change throughout the game. It seems like mass would be better left as a way to balance the value of the armor. The more it weighs, the better it is, and the less your ship cooperates. So the player has to decide whether they want more protection or more maneuverability.

No, I think it's done xml side, not a mass/level curve thing.

[Aeonic]

I was referring to this:

To help me balance, I've defined a set of "standard armors," one for each level. A standard armor has no damage bonuses (other than intrinsic to the level) and no special features.

1. Standard armor HP starts at 36 at level I and increases by 30% each level.
2. Standard armor cost starts at 50 at level I and increases by 100% each level.
3. Standard armor mass starts at 2,500 kg at level I and increases by 5% each level.

[F50]

Boosting armor instead of putting something back into shields does leave the shieldbuster MAG completely useless. It's predicated on the old shield stats.

I believe you have also argued that its completely useless anyways. Anyways, even even if it were completely removed, it wouldn't change much.

This is also a huge nerf to Earth Slavers, the Dragon Slaver, and Sung Citadels as well as Pteravores (though that last one isn't a complaint) because their strength comes from being able to remove or bypass shields.

True, perhaps make the sheildsDown ability happen more often?

It's also a huge boost for anything that does EMP, radiation, device damage, or disintigration since armor HP mean nothing against them.

Rad immune armor is easy to come by, and its usually easy to deal with radiation poisoning in the first place. Dyon dust is available to take on the Ventari if you need it, and some useful non-meteorsteel armors (ceralloy?) are immune to it intrinsically. Its also an uncommon ability (easy to stay away from if you're paranoid) and does not always take effect. Disintegration is only wielded by the boss at this point, and the Iocrym has been nerfed significantly to compensate.

AI ships also now seem to stack up EMP rather than ceasing to use EMP weapons against EMPed ships, which makes EMP turn into an unavoidable death spiral much more easily. That's fine and sensable behavior, but EMP needs to be nerfed in some other way to compensate, not boosted by shifting emphasis from shields to armor.

More easily, yes, but that's why we have sustain. I wouldn't mind EMP-disabling to last shorter amounts of time though. Perhaps the EMP cannon could be made level VI? Also, only Dwarg and Barbary use EMP IIRC, dyon dust helps. My only question regarding this is whether dyon dust still makes EMP weapons do *real* ion damage, and whether that is sane.

Don't forget that the player can also take advantage of EMP quite nicely with 1M/i autons.

[Aury]

I was referring to this:

To help me balance, I've defined a set of "standard armors," one for each level. A standard armor has no damage bonuses (other than intrinsic to the level) and no special features.

1. Standard armor HP starts at 36 at level I and increases by 30% each level.
2. Standard armor cost starts at 50 at level I and increases by 100% each level.
3. Standard armor mass starts at 2,500 kg at level I and increases by 5% each level.

I calculated the mass at level 10; it's only 4.6-4.7, within even the sapphire's 5 ton limit. I think it's over one of atarlost's modded ships though, now that I think of it....

[Aeonic]

I'd be happy if EMP would just let you keep heading in the direction the ship was already moving. I don't see any reason why your ship should stop. That leaves you dead in the water where everything can keep shooting EMPs at you. And that's just no fun, especially when some ships like the Barbary that you can't easily outrun, so if you're not equipped for EMP you can't get away from it.

@Wolfy (yes, actually Wolfy this time) - But armor is supposed to go up to level 25. What then?

[Sponge]

Increased armor is also going to make any fast enemy that follows the default behavior of running away to regen when its shield goes down extremely annoying.

Yes; this is going to get annoying fast. I recommend new, defensive AI behaviors be implemented in this one's place to compensate. Especially for ships that are hard to chase down.

This is also a huge nerf to Earth Slavers, the Dragon Slaver, and Sung Citadels

I'm actually totally okay with this. I find Shields Down to be incredibly infuriating, and making is less meaningful is a welcome change. All it does is force me onto wreck for the duration anyways. I wouldn't mind being able to fight through it more successfully.

It's also a huge boost for anything that does EMP, radiation, device damage, or disintigration since armor HP mean nothing against them.

This is slightly worrisome, as EMP really sucks. It's not that it's too hard to defeat, but that defeating it requires one of a couple very specific strategies that puts you at a disadvantage a few systems later. Dwarg have really long range (or did, has this been changed recently? I can't recall) and Barbarys are incredibly fast, even for the Wolfen. Once you get EMPd, you're literally dead in the water and will very likely be killed before you get back up. Device damage is another kick in the neck, too. I like the idea of armor being as important as shields, but it seems to be introducing a bunch of little nuisances that cannot be neglected.

On a final note, I'd like to recommend that repair costs be reduced to reflect the increased likelihood of armor damage.

[Aury]

@Wolfy (yes, actually Wolfy this time) - But armor is supposed to go up to level 25. What then?

I'm not entirely sure that you'll still be using your human-built ship outside the q-zone. that's really a question for george to answer though.

[Retroactive]

Now that shields are nerfed, worldship armor is unfortunately almost comically overpowered for armor that can be purchased in Eridani and mounted on a player's ship. If you can find four plates, your freighter is effectively invincible until you hit positron weapons due to its immunity to laser, kinetic, particle, blast, radiation, EMP, disruption, etc. etc. etc and 500% resistance to ion and thermo.

In-game, worldship armor is found on Xenophobe worldships and Gaian processors, both of which are rare, late-game enemies that are generally regarded as very difficult to kill. It does not make sense that their uber-armor be freely available before St. Katherines.

I would suggest that worldship armor should at the very least be increased by at least two levels and gain the Military tag, and maybe not be available for purchase. For players wanting to play no-shields, there should be some intermediate no-shields armor that is better than heavy meteorsteel (which becomes inviable soon after St. Katherine's).

Alternately, perhaps worldship armor could have a Solon-like effect of some sort on the player's ship. Maybe in addition to preventing shields from being used, it could also limit the use of energy weapons somehow?

[Atarlost]

That last wouldn't make sense since the xenophobes use energy weapons. Merely exempting meteorsteel armors, except maybe light which is positively anemic, from the general armor buffing would fix their overpoweredness.