Mining Changes

[Prophet]

B. Mining must be a trade-off (i.e., you must give up something in another path)

I feel this is the best path to follow.

Making consequences should legitimize mining as an alternative path/class.
Mining already somewhat excludes the black market with the cargo hold options. I don't consider this a real trade off because the revenue lost is miniscule and you can still have an ID which will give you 90% of the other benefits. If the miner option had stations that provided similar services to the BM shipyard I would vote to make these two options mutually exclusive.

What about escalating spawns? Make moderately dangerous but nonlucrative enemies appear in increasing numbers the longer you stay in a system.

I like the idea of escalating spawns but would rather see it implemented as a risk associated with choosing the "pure" fighter class/role. Once a base is destroyed, the number and power of random encounters is increased. These enemies would have average to high loot to offset the credits that would otherwise be earned in the other classes/roles.

You can still follow the military path and be a miner, but trying to accomplish both should be discouraged. More military missions that require basecracking, thereby increasing random encounters would make mining very difficult. Korolov and mining are similar in many ways and could be tied together more. One thing that's been brought up often is the option to carry freight in missions.

I don't feel that limiting the freighter would be favourable and should not be included in the discussion of mining as a playstyle. The freighter may be better suited to mining but it also makes for a very decent combat choice being able to handle the biggest reactors and armor. Howitzers are also more deadly with the freighter as a stable mount giving the freighter the analogy and feeling of a tank. Alternatively, mining should be made more viable for the Wolfen and Sapphire, namely, cargo capacity and issues with maneuverability. The freighter can mine and only suffers a little in combat but the other ships are just not capable of doing both a little. It's all or nothing.

what if all asteroids gives you debris to load in the cargo ?

I like this idea also, which could be used to make our current mining method very tedious but still an option. Add to this, the ability to hire an auton or another pilot from a mining stations that would accompany you and collect the raw ore for you. This would be an optional convenience service but would provide the backbone for the mining mini-game.

Having the ambiguous ore would allow some 'fudging' in the code to dynamically create ore appropriate to the mined asteroids.
Volcanic asteroids -> volcanic rocks -> (table of appropriate items)
Ice Asteroids -> Ice rocks -> (table...) etc.
This could also open more possibilities and justification for the intermediate economy, taking the raw materials and paying to have it processed into something.

Miners could be hired on an 'hourly' rate, for a maximum amount of time. This would be a major balance factor manipulating the investment cost relative to the probable return. Higher levels would unlock ships with bigger holds and faster but would cost more. Protecting these ships would also be critical, beyond losing any ore they had in them and the initial cost, no other miners from that station would be willing to work with you.

As for player skill, that would be a matter of choice within this mini-game idea.
The twitch - Shoot as many asteroids as fast as possible to fill up the hired ship fast, saving on costs but settling with average ore.
Precision - Seeking out the best quality ore in the highest concentration, trying to optimize the payoff.
Puzzle - Perhaps the auton contract would be limited by the amount of ore they can carry and allow unlimited time in the asteroid field. The player would choose this option if they wanted spend more time searching for a few tons of very high priced ore.
Strategy - Perhaps buying the mine station could be an option, allowing the player to do the mining mini-game as often as desired. Contracts would always be available for purchase. This would also open up options for sending enemies to attack the players property. I'm not sure that owning stations should be incorporated into the game. It conflicts with the overall plot (get to the core) and should only be included if necessary to justify a large investment.

[Atarlost]

If there's infinite time for the miner but not for the basebuster then they aren't mutually exclusive, you just have to mine first. A timer that isn't universal is useless.

[Aeonic]

You could use the same exclusion method that black market and mining use in cargo holds by requiring something along those lines in order to board stations, and possibly wrecks in general. Perhaps you need to refit your cargo hold into a troop transport pod and recruit troops at the stations, etc... So basically you can blow up stations all you want, it just won't be profitable until you are properly equipped to invade them afterwords.

For wrecks, there might also be the chance that someone survived the explosion and will retaliate, perhaps scuttling the ship so that it blows up in your face, if you don't take necessary boarding precautions necessitating a troop transport pod.

Then you have:
Cargo hold expansion - for traders
Miner's cargo hold - for miners
Smuggler's cargo hold - for smugglers
Troop transport hold - for base-crackers

Although personally I'd like to throw in:
Device expander hold - for people who don't care for any of the above options

[Prophet]

I really like the idea of separating the different factions into a typical RPG-esque format while keeping the barriers transparent enough to not feel limiting in a rogue-like game.

Transcendence Class - Fantasy RPG Class
Combat Ace - Fighter
Miner - Wizard
Black Market - Rogue
Trader - Bard
Believer - Cleric


While everyone already has a play style that can roughly be attributed to one of these classes, there is room to add specialization and reward those who choose to follow only one class and penalize those who try to do everything. This could result in a large gain to replayability, taking a different class and ship, following different faction story arcs while keeping the core universally accessible. Perhaps none of the classes get access to every detail of the plot, and to fully realize the entire story, you MUST play different styles/classes.

Note:
I realize most of this doesn't pertain exclusively to mining, but the problems with mining may be systemic of a larger issue? Perhaps, there are only a few of us that want to go down the road of creating a more RPG style game, in which case this belongs in the Shipyards Forum.

[Atarlost]

Classes are for multiplayer or mutli-avatar games. Any use of them in a single avatar single player game is about following the tropes rather than optimizing gameplay and Transcendence is not a medeival RPG so it doesn't need to satisfy people who expect medeival RPG tropes.

[Viperion]

I personally would not like to see Transcendence go down the RPG route to a greater extent than now, especially with class specialization. I personally don't think it fits the current feel, and I enjoy the more open-ended nature. Plus, I like that the game gives you a lot of player freedom, and I think classes would restrict that freedom.

The Hyper Viper

[Aeonic]

And I personally don't care whether all the possible routes you can take are perfectly balanced or not. I figure that, regardless of whether a particular route to success is too difficult or too easy, people will probably do it anyway just because its something to do. Given that there is a distinct shortage of something to dos in this game beyond blowing up stations, it doesn't matter how easy, hard, or unbalancing they are, unless it totally ruins the game by providing god-level equipment or something.

[Sponge]

@Altarlost and Viperion
I don't think that's what Prophet was suggesting. There's a difference between explicitly defined classes and specializations, while they have a similar net effect on replayability. I could be wrong, but I was definitely getting more "specialization" vibes from Prophet's post.

I am personally in favor of frequent tradeoffs. Classes wouldn't work, but meaningful decisions in a open-ended, freeform environment would fit the universe very well. I should be able to choose (through actions: not formally) how I want to play. If one playstyle could be combat-oriented and the next totally dependent on some other subset of the universe (mining, trading, etc), replayability would be expanded tenfold. And it's pretty high as is.

[digdug]

what about a skill points system ?
you start the game with 4-5 skill points and you can decide to allocate them in various bonuses or skills.

Example you can dock to a mining station, and get trained to mine (allocate 1 skill point). Only then the mining event works and you get ore from asteroids.

Other skills could be fighting, (bonuses to speed, weapons, shields, like +10% bonus on all installed weapons) repairing, fuel saving skill (consume less fuel), trading (get discounts when buy/sell), star system mapping (get more details in the map),


In this way we don't have fixed classes to choose from, and the player can build the character freely. At the same time we abide to the rule: "Mining must be a trade-off (i.e., you must give up something in another path) " because skill points must be less than the available skills to learn during the game.

Skills can also be mutually exclusive, to prevent unfair advantages, but this is game balancing...

Comments ?

[Atarlost]

The really nice thing about Transcendence has been that there are no skills.

http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/ ... three.html

Problem: Giving the player an unlimited choice of abilities makes them unduely powerful, because of some of the abilities are designed exploit a specific opponent weakness. If the player can use any ability, they can always exploit this weakness, therefore any opponent with a weakness is less powerful than otherwise designed.

Solution: Restrict the player choices by having a build system of some kind, such as by using classes, skills or an inventory of abilities that they can use. Put restrictions in place, so that the build system allows a balanced set of abilities to be chosen, and the player to learn the advantages and disadvantages of each ability selection early in the game. Make respecifying the build as easy as possible, so that the player can change the ability load out at any point in the game, while limiting the respec so that it cannot be easily done in the middle of an encounter with an opponent.

Consequences: The build and respec system is a complex process, both to design and for the players to understand. It is critical that the player is given the opportunity to respec as often as possible, so that if they make an incorrect or suboptimal choice in their build design, they can fix this with minimal consequences. The game designer can also use this to evaluate if certain abilities are under or overpowered by the frequency of their selection in builds.

Examples: Unfortunately, class and skill based games do not usually have a good respec system for the class and skill builds, unless it features frequent death and respawning into a new class. The Dungeons & Dragons magic system allows a respec of the spell list at the start of each day, which is as close as that game system comes to an adequate respec system. Only inventory based games allow a flexible respec system with the appropriate limitations. See Skills vs Classes for an expanded argument to this effect.

You're suggesting breaking a nearly perfect build and respec system. If you have to do that to have mining be balanced I don't think it's worth having mining in the game at all.

edited to fix a malformed quote tag

[Aury]

I am going to play the freighter and go through the whole game sans mining, just to show it can be done. (Thing is, I don't mine, ever, anyways, because mining is too much of a grind.)
...
maybe later. It's getting late right now. *Goes to mess around with shiny new CW monitors*

[Aeonic]

I don't like the idea of skill points in this game either, but remember Atarlost, people who are discussing revising the game's "path" system are talking about everything in the game, not just mining.

[Atarlost]

And I'm saying paths shouldn't be locked in. You may lock in your relations with various sovereigns, but you should never lock in your abilities. You should always, unless you've done something obviously suicidal like piss off all the factions capable of installing equipment, be able to switch from miner to merchant to gunship to whatever other roles are introduced.

[alterecco]

While it is an interesting discussion, i think it has moved a bit off topic. Implementing a skill system wont help make mining more interesting (without changing the game entirely), and as far as I can see, that is the issue at hand.

Mining is already very well aligned with the rest of the gameplay. It takes the form of shooting immobile targets that drop cargo on occasion, and uses items that you can use as others. Nothing could be more Transcendence like.

I think the excellent ideas suggested here are the ones that deal with taking that base and making it more interesting. Having more missions and encounters spun around mining, perhaps more equipment related to mining and giving the mining stations more life (Miners guild?, missions, rank) would be a very direct way of making mining more interesting without changing the entire game or introducing radical new concepts.

Higher yield ore and a higher occupational hazard along with mining being more of a money sink (upgrade equip to mine higher level 'roids, perhaps make the mining weapons ammo users) could perhaps balance mining out without making it mind-numbingly boring (the grind).

In the end the main reason for mining would always be profit. But i don't think it would be going the wrong way to make mining less profitable if it in turn became more fun/interesting.

Who knows, perhaps mining could even be used in a subplot, allowing for one of those progressions where the players reputation with the miners guild (imaginary :\) ) determines outcome. Perhaps the guild supplies ore to the Charon in secret??

[Prophet]

To make myself clear, I was NOT advocating the creation of a class system.
The ability to self-define your personal play style is a critical aspect of Transcendence.

What I WAS trying to say, was that there needs to be some form of balance system in place to define the different play styles.

Currently, every player is able to to pick any ship and do all ranking to completion in every game. I don't want to change this but if someone chooses to be a low-combatant, they should be able to. This would enable them to do low-combat missions relatively easily while the high-combat missions would be very challenging and vice versa for a combat play style.

I do not support locking someone into any path but would prefer there be balanced choices for each. Changing from a low-combat style to a high-combat style must be possible (and in fact is necessary) but should incur a heavy cost, either monetary or otherwise.



And now, back to mining...
Ideas for asteroids:
- Have all asteroids contain something, but reduce the amount.
- Once an asteroid is mined, it is destroyed (maybe not, just an idea)
- Asteroids should contain items relative to their system level
- Random events (spawn an encounter, explodes, radiation, pteravore etc..)

Ideas for mining stations:
- Provide missions for mining and combat (but still mining related)
- Must create a demand for ore rather than supply it (or in addition to)
- Must be present in the mid-late game for those who wish to follow this play style.
- Should have an associated ranking system on par with Korolov, Milita, Fleet, Black Market and Domina.


Ideas for balance:
The more I think about it, the biggest problem with mining is that the freighter is the only ship that CAN make money at it. The wolfen and sapphire simply can't hold enough ore to turn a decent profit. Having the mining stations provide an auton or ship that will collect the ore once it is extracted is one idea to combat this problem. Instituting some piece of equipment to let them find higher quality ores would not solve the problem because there would be nothing stopping the freighter from getting it and then the problem is more complicated.

Making mining fun is another major problem and there is no simple solution. Alot can be done just by changing the mining equipment. Mining lasers with passthrough with capacitors, or mining charges that use ammo. Combined with the changes to asteroids I put forward earlier this alone would be a big improvement.

Mining missions:
The missions should be the method to gain mining xp and levels. The higher levels giving you access to better equipment and the ability to mine more types of asteroids. The low-combat missions could be giving the player a quota to fill for a specific ore that is present in the surrounding asteroid field. This could involve a time limit or not, and would still allow enough choices for individual style. Do you use a precision tool and go directly to the specified asteroids or do you carpet bomb the whole area and pick out what you want? Various complications can be added like exploding asteroids and incoming hostiles. Perhaps each mission would have competing miners that will try and steal your ore or drop explosives beside you. To limit the amount of whining, we should include some combat missions so everyone can gain ranks. The combat missions would be similar to most others; protect the mining ship, destroy the illegal miners, save the mining ship.

Mining could present some interesting opportunities to add flavor to some of the story arcs, finding a rom in a asteroid may lead you to someone that has a job for you to do, or it has coordinates of a pirate treasure horde (pirates included), or its just a diary from someone that features in one of the many subplots and now you get some extra information about them. Randomness is fun and interesting and fits well with the rest of the game.

Alright, I've been writing this for 75 minutes, I'm done for now